Julie Kratz
Welcome to the next Pivot Point podcast. This season I’m focused on sharing stories and ideas from experts on diversity and inclusion. In this episode, I will share some insights and ideas from my guest expert, Jennifer Brown. Together we will leave you with some actionable tips to think about and discuss with your organization. We share this information because inclusive leadership is a journey and requires. Bravery and courage, and you do not have to do it alone at next pivot point. I believe we are stronger together. We are one. So we’re going to dig into this week’s expert and this is a real treat for me. I have had so. Such a crush, if you will, on Jennifer and her work and just been so enlightened by following her podcast and her books. So we’re going to dig into all that in a minute. But I’m going to introduce her. She’s an award-winning entrepreneur, Dynamic speaker and Diversity and inclusion expert. She’s the founder and CEO of Jennifer Brown Consulting. Strategic leadership and diversity consulting firm that coaches business leaders worldwide on critical issues of talent and workplace strategy. Brown is a passionate advocate for social equality who helps businesses foster healthier, more productive workplace cultures. Her book inclusion diversity, the new workplace and the will to change 2006. Team will inspire a leadership to embrace the opportunity that diversity represents and empower advocates to drive change that resonates in today’s world. Jennifer’s second book, how to be an inclusive leader, which I’m holding in my hand, is a short list OWL award and and not tell us Book Award winner in business categories and provides a step by step guide for personal and Emotional journey we must undertake to create an inclusive workplace where everyone can thrive. Jennifer, I’m so excited.
Jennifer Brown
I’m so excited to be here. Julie, thank you so much. I know this is going to be a super awesome conversation. Because there’s so much we work on that’s living parallel lives, so looking forward to this.
Julie Kratz
It is well, good and good allies of ours, Brad Johnson and David Smith, who are publishing a new book, The Good Guys. We were just catching up and chatting about them, introduced us many moons ago, and then I jumped on and followed up with Jennifer’s podcast, which will to change is one of the best diversity. I think it’s one of the top rated. Versus and Inclusion podcast, you’ll have to check that one out in your books and I just drove right in and I thought, Oh my gosh, I there’s so much to learn and so much that complements how I approached diversity, equity and inclusion work so. Let’s dig in first. Jennifer, I know we can cover the gamut here. Your book. So your last book, your second book, how to be an inclusive leader. Very relevant. Right now. You published it last summer. Like like really thought 2020 was going to be the year they ally. And then I doubted it researched.
Jennifer Brown
Oh, and then and then you were so wrong. And and so right.
Julie Kratz
What I love about your book is it really does meet people where they’re at in their own journeys individually as leaders, which we know collectively creates a culture in an organization where diversity can thrive. So you call it a journey, right? You have a continuum and you identify kind of four key stages.
Jennifer Brown
Yeah.
Julie Kratz
I’d love for you to share more of that framework with your, with our listeners and and how you’ve unpacked that over the years and taught that.
Jennifer Brown
Yeah, thank you. So yeah, I am a consultant always at heart. That’s how I started in this business. So I think in terms of of evolutionary models or maturity models, you can call them or kind of learning paths and it struck me that it was important for us as aspiring allies because as you know, Julie, you were only. Allies. If someone in an affected group calls us an ally, right? It’s not not a badge we can put on, and it’s something that we earn every day. But it struck me that what’s important to know first as a learner is where am I? And so I built this as a tool to understand just roughly, you know, it’s not a scientific thing, it’s art and science. You know, this work is, but to sort of ballpark ourselves in the right place on the journey and those 4 phases sort of where do I sit? Generally and then per identity. So I’ve actually like double clicked down and when I teach the model, I give literally give people a list of 12 different identity. Both visible and invisible aspects of our diversity, and I do some polling and I say, you know, where are you in this journey per identity because I think that’s also sort of an extra nuance to understand that I can be, for example, phase four in my model, which is advocate, very advanced for LGBTQ issues because I’m in that community. But I can be for race and ethnicity as a white person, I might be phase two, which is aware 2 active right phase two to phase three. I’m sort of, you know, moving into more action, more overt behaviors that are creating. Change for disabilities. I may be sort of out of sort of earlier phase in the journey and people feel that’s such a relief. Like I can literally feel people say, you know, thank you for helping me understand where I am and that I can be at multiple places at any given time, which makes sense. And then to take the right next step, I would never.
Julie Kratz
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Brown
I would never deliver a training or advice to someone who’s advocate level in the same way as I would to somebody in the unaware phase one category. It’s just a completely different conversation. And so I’m always thinking I’m a training and development person. I have a masters degree in organizational change and I think a lot about. Our our, you know leadership development and our leadership paths and our learning paths and how do we get people to a understand B to change their behavior, C to hold them themselves accountable and D you know change for good sort of in a lasting way and so yeah this was my best endeavor to do that. And keep it simple. Keep it doable. Keep it concrete. This is not some sort of mysterious process, and I just felt like there wasn’t a book out there that really like, nailed that down. There’s a lot of memoirs. There’s a lot of. I guess I just don’t think there’s a lot of practical books about like, how do I actually do this? And and this is the question we’re asking now, like, OK, I get the need for change and I’m understanding the why more deeply than I ever have understood it before. But where do I start? And I’m sure you’re still getting that question too, maddeningly, because I feel like. You know. Read a book read 1 of. Our books. The answers are there.
Julie Kratz
Content. Google, Google. Yeah, there’s no shortage of content, but you’re right. I mean, even after I feel like I do a talk on allyship and explain how you can show up for people that are different than you and and to your point, it is a continuum. I I love this whole unawareness to awareness, to activity, to advocate. And you can be anywhere in the journey. It’s that step one is self-awareness. Even after I unpack that for people and help them understand practical, what I think is really practical, they’re still, like, So what?
Jennifer Brown
Do I do like I know weird, right?
Julie Kratz
I don’t know why dei seems to work like that, especially for white men, and I think you’ve just been. Traditionally, we just we haven’t done a great job including them in the conversation. And that’s not because we haven’t tried. It’s just some of the language sometimes is very polarizing. I still get the visceral response of kind of throwing up my hands in the area and taking my marbles and leaving like, I can’t do this right. So we’re fighting some of that, but once people are on this journey, right, Jennifer, you know, once you get people to awareness, they’re not going to jump off and they’re going to continue the journey. Most likely, if they’re willing to do a little bit.
Jennifer Brown
I hope so. That’s true. That’s.
Julie Kratz
Of. Work and your guide is great, a great job of getting people jump started on that journey.
Jennifer Brown
Yeah, I would tell you that there is there is some risk of losing people along that journey though, like I’d say between phase two aware and phase three active is where some may get kind of freaked out or get some maybe not so great feedback on what they’re trying to implement and there’s some risk there.
Julie Kratz
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown
And so risk of losing them, but also risk to our to our to our sense of ourself, I guess as we’re trying and getting it wrong. Risk there is of getting it wrong and and we live in a call out culture. Unfortunately I am not. And and I just believe so much in, in nurturing people through the cycle, because I needed to be nurtured through the cycle. So did you. And I don’t think there’s any person that’s listening to this that didn’t need to. I mean, just because you’re in a marginalized group and you’ve been the victim of bias doesn’t mean that you can’t also be the perpetrator.
Julie Kratz
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown
Tobias as well. And so we all kind of are in this soup together, but we can be so harsh in our judgments. And so when people start to take what they learned in aware phase two and they activate around it, lots can go wrong and probably lots will go wrong. And so I try to really, I try to really like warn people. And in the book I try to think about the.
Speaker
That’s true.
Julie Kratz
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown
Psychology of that like. How do I how do I not get something perfect and do it anyway? And then how do I move through the discomfort, right? Staying, getting comfortable, being uncomfortable which is one of our favorite tenants. Yours and mine. Right? And how do I stay in the feedback here? What I need to hear, learn what I need to learn, not take my marbles and go home. But but sort of.
Julie Kratz
Ohh yeah.
Jennifer Brown
Do the weeble wobble thing right? Like you? You. You hit me. I go down and I I bounce back up like it’s the growth mindset right from Carol Dweck’s book, which is a classic.
Speaker
Yep.
Jennifer Brown
You know it’s. OK, fail forward like bounce back, come back and try it again. Do it better. You know it not not be fragile about it, which is the Robin D’Angelo concept, right? It’s it’s the fragility really can can be triggered in phase three. And what I don’t want to do and what we can’t do is we can’t lose people. We cannot let people jump off the journey.
Julie Kratz
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown
Once we get them on the train, even if they’re in the caboose, hanging on the speeding train by a finger, we gotta like reach the hand out and we gotta, like, keep the hand out reached, I think because we got to make this change together. And you’re right, I think we’ve, we’ve, we’ve used some polarizing language in the past, not not purposely not I, but but it’s had the unintended consequences of making people feel excluded from the conversation. And that’s why another big teaching point I always use is that everyone has a diversity story like I have to walk in a room and tell myself even if I’m staring at a sea of white male.
Julie Kratz
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown
Cases that there is a Brad and David in that audience like right, I mean you and I know that’s true.
Julie Kratz
Their allies, they’re there. They want to be there.
Jennifer Brown
They’re allies. We just can’t see them. We just can’t see them because we have all these. We’ve got some stereotypes about who’s in that room, and I know so. I’ve had to check myself and say, you know, I may be having a reaction in that room. As a woman and as a queer person whose identity is hidden unless I make it over. I’ve got to stand there and, you know, go through that process of telling myself, I actually do not know who these individuals are and the most, the most inclusive way I need to hold myself to that standard is to say. It just their diversity hasn’t revealed itself to me. My job here is to create a safe space, A brave space, as as somebody many people refer to it, where those sharing can happen and where I can somehow kind of get them on the caboose of the train and then see themselves in this narrative as a really important actor, as a really important. Change agent. Somebody who holds the keys to power and privilege and platform. And access and somebody who with very little effort, I think that’s the other thing I I try to I mean you and I know this is work for sure, but it’s it’s work in a sense of like brushing your teeth everyday it’s hygiene you know it’s it’s making sure you work out you know get your heart rate up. It’s making sure you’re saving for the future it’s you know your D and I work. Shouldn’t be like. Shouldn’t overtake your life. But it is a practice and it needs to be consistent, but it doesn’t need to be overwhelmingly difficult. And so I also just want to make make it somehow easy to understand, not fear inducing, not paralyzing, no shame. I really try to be careful about that. And Renee Brown did a recent podcast. Interview. I’m talking about a lot. Good.
Julie Kratz
I listened so it’s not a social justice vehicle. I love how she said that never going to get positive response.
Jennifer Brown
Ohh, shame and guilt? Yes. Check out that episode. I think it was maybe a month and a half ago. Yeah, sure. But why is it good? So I just try to kind of hang on to everybody.
Julie Kratz
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown
And I feel though sometimes like Gumby like I’m being stretched like from all directions and like I’m in the middle. Like, hold on. I’m like don’t forget we are all human. We’ve all. I mean you stop a person on the street and say like, OK, define LGBTQ for me, like, how much of an ally are you to to the community? Simon, right and. A lot of people are still flub up the words they don’t know. Understand the pronouns. They don’t know why we need to share them, and those people can be of other diversity dimensions, right? And so just the patience and the grace and the space that we need to give each other is really profound. And I think it’s a little bit. Missing right now. So I just want to make that point.
Julie Kratz
Yeah, but you raised a really good point, Jeff. I mean, I appreciate you challenging me on that because once you’re on the journey, doesn’t mean you’re going to stay on your to your point especially.
Jennifer Brown
Hmm.
Julie Kratz
Like once you become aware and you wake up and you see these things, and I think for a lot of white people, it’s a realization that racism still exists. I mean that that really is the place that we’re at a lot of times, right. Unfortunately for people like you and me are like, come on. This had to happen for. You to see. That but you get you get awoken. Start seeing you like. OK, great. I’m going to go right into activity. Mess up.
Jennifer Brown
No, I say it’s like I’m jumping into a marathon without having trained for six months.
Speaker
Right.
Jennifer Brown
Like you really are going to hurt yourself and I don’t want you injured for a year because then you’re out of the game and like every day counts. So what I also say is like peace yourself and be healthy about this. Like be healthy and it is a muscle that needs to be developed. You don’t want to strain that muscle. You don’t want to injure yourself and it. You need to kind of in a way. Follow the steps and spend enough time and and don’t ask me how long like you need to stay at each phase like people. It’s so funny how people kind of try to force. Things into like goals and metrics. And it’s so like our business world that we have to deal with all the time and. I’m. Like stop, just like, stop doing that. Like, that’s part of the problem, right? That you’re always trying to quantify things and measure things and you want to know what success looks like and you want to know when you’re done. You know if if this what? What?
Julie Kratz
Policy. What policy should I write on that? That’s when I get like. Just don’t do that.
Jennifer Brown
No, like it’s, you know, you need to dedicate like it’s gonna be messy and it’s ongoing and it’s it’s amorphous and things are changing all the time. Like it’s language is changing all the time and instead of saying I thought I had arrived and being obsessed with the destination, which is I think with the business world kind of hammers into us and frankly I mean if not to get too kind of off off the rails. But I mean white supremacy culture. I’ve been thinking a lot about and and it was the way I was raised right. I don’t know about.
Julie Kratz
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown
Do I assume right?
Julie Kratz
Sure. Yep, absolutely.
Jennifer Brown
And then if you literally Google the characteristics of white supremacy culture, it literally reads like the business playbook it is. It is like pound for pound, exactly the kinds of things that you and I are laughing about right now. But like literally that is what’s valued. And So what it sounds like when I walk into the room, you walk into the room is Jennifer. We need more proof. Points we need more data. We need more business case. I’m like there is so much business case. It’s coming out of. My like every like like. How much more do you need to be convinced? You know, and you shouldn’t even need to relate this so much to ROI and the bottom line like I get it, but it’s such a red herring and it’s such a distraction and delay tactic. And and it’s a horrible use of your and my time. Just to me, I’m like, OK, so you’re just wasting my time because we could be sitting here having a conversation about how. Instead of why and why this matters? And really, honestly, why people matter, which is, I’m not sure why I need to give you 10 million business cases for that. Like I just you know it’s no simple like.
Julie Kratz
There’s no there’s no shortage of data. If you really know Harvard, Business review has over a decade of data, so you can rightly get that available.
Jennifer Brown
No. And Mackenzie and like any take your favorite like consulting company like. Yeah, so it’s.
Julie Kratz
Right. And and.
Jennifer Brown
It is very. I think we have to be aware of tackling the the exclusionary norms of white supremacy culture that permeate the workplace, that make the workplace uncomfortable and unproductive and difficult and worse. I would say harmful to those of us who. Don’t identify in that group. I mean and it’s interesting because white women, we know white supremacy culture, right? We grew up like up close and personal to it like it is everything. Right. And it was how we were. So it’s I think to step away from that and look at it.
Julie Kratz
Oh yeah.
Jennifer Brown
Quickly, which is what I’ve been doing lately and saying as a business owner too, I look at these characteristics that have been sort of like literally preached to me as a business owner for so many years, like by my advisors, who, by the way, were many, many, many men originally like this was.
Julie Kratz
Same here.
Jennifer Brown
13 years ago, right when I was struggling. Going to figure out like what is this whole entrepreneurship thing like? How do I set this up like I was an opera singer, you know, and an activist. I was like, I don’t know. I know I have a big vision. I know I have a lot of, like, power and belief and conviction and resources, but like, and and all the advice I got was along those lines, too. Grow it bigger. You know, define your strategic plan right? Like the whole? Yeah. I mean, all the leadership guru stuff that I have on my shelves by white, straight male authors.
Speaker
Yep. Rigid.
Jennifer Brown
I I felt I had to follow it, you know, and I think it was really harmful for me because it wasn’t authentic to me. And so it’s been me making me realize, like consulting to these companies that are still sort of blind to this one way of thinking, you know, is is sort of traumatizing me, re traumatizing me. Energizing everybody in the. Vision and I think fundamentally those are some of the things we need to really tackle and the perfectionism the it’s not real if it’s not written down sort of primarying the written word like I mean it just goes on and on. So I would recommend everybody I think ultimately this is where we’re sort of going. But I think a lot of people are not ready. To say the words white supremacy culture, it’s very threatening. Obviously it’s not something that I talk about it a lot with my clients obviously, but I think as practitioners and people who are advocates, we need to particularly white people, we need to kind of see things for what they are.
Julie Kratz
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown
And when we say the workforce was built not by and for. Many of us. I think that’s what we’re talking about, but you know, again, we got to meet the client where they’re at. We got to meet people in a place not of sort of repelling them from the conversation. But I do want us to understand, sort of, you know, some of the roots of this because eventually we’ll be ready for the conversation just. Like lately, we’ve been ready to have a conversation about racism where three months ago we weren’t.
Julie Kratz
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jennifer, I think that’s a really good point. You know, white supremacy is is a term I think just like racism, that’s very polarizing, just like privilege for white people because it feels like we did something wrong and it’s and it’s not absolutely not the intention of the term it it’s really more about just understanding the dynamics of the way our systems. Were created and how much? Systemic change is needed to facilitate the kind of changes that we’re talking about for inclusion. So you have to tackle the individual, much like your book addresses, while tackling the the system itself. It’s reinforced with white supremacy and has all these tentacles everywhere, everywhere. It’s really hard because. We feel like we’re fighting for not just the why for why diversity matters, but then having to do it within the confines of these very narrow boundaries of white supremacy that, like you said, if enforced that reinforce it, and it’s so hard to see. It’s so hard to even know what’s happening to you when you’re in the throes of it. You and I have the vantage point to be on the outside. Now I can kind of call it out. I’m thinking of a client, right?
Jennifer Brown
We’re also insiders too. We’re insiders because of the color of our skin, which is really interesting.
Julie Kratz
It is and and to know when it’s happening, you’re experiencing it and how negative it is for everyone. No one’s benefiting from this system.
Speaker
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown
Really think about it. I mean, I would argue you, you speak to male allies all the time, right? It’s I love like Mark Green and Tony Porter talking about the man box. How? Talk talk.
Julie Kratz
Right.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
Julie Kratz
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown
Sick. The expectations are for men and for their behaviors. You know, to uphold all of this because there’s a diversity of men, too. I mean, newsflash, I know that’s not seems so obvious. But but there is. And that’s why we can’t view men as a monolith. Right. When I walk into that room, I’ve got to. I’ve got to be seeking the difference. Because that’s critical for me as a practitioner, but it’s critical for them and their souls to be seen for the humans they are, and I I just like that is so dehumanizing to see, you know, men as the problem, you know. It is not fair, it’s not correct. It’s not accurate. It’s not human. It’s not. It’s not helpful. You know, I think that we’ve got to help men be strong to step outside of the man box, which requires a ton of risk for them because they could be ostracized. You know, they are literally criticizing the system that they’ve maybe benefited from as we’ve talked about. But they’re, you know, they’re challenging it just like you and I might be challenging white culture, which is our culture. Yeah, but but people who sort of deflect from the insider group and can stand in the inside and speak as an outsider or speak. You know, with an additional lenses that you and I have have studied so much so that we can, if I am the only woman in that room, I’m going to bring in the intersectional women’s stories, you know, and make sure that it’s not just me that I’m speaking about or advocating alongside, but that, you know, I’m bringing the voice of women of color, and I’m bringing the. Of queer women of all identities, and bringing in the voice of the men that don’t even feel that they belong in that male dominated world. And I want to give not just permission for that conversation, but encouragement. You know, I want to make sure, like, I’m holding a brave space so that those aspiring male allies can find their voice because they’re going to be the ones when they challenge. That group it carries so much more power than you or I ever could, and that’s the that’s the key. If we leave people behind, that could be these powerful voices on the inside. We are lost. I mean, you and I are going to have to work 10 times as hard to get to achieve the change that one strong male ally could could enact, right. And so it’s just to me, this is like a logical way of thinking about how change happens, who has the power.
Speaker
Who?
Jennifer Brown
Who has the influence? Who will be listened to? The messenger matters as much as the message, right? So we need all kinds of messengers saying these things in their words so that it can be heard. Because you and I know how difficult this is, and if it’s just a few of us that are allowed to have those conversations, it’s not enough. Not enough, sadly.
Julie Kratz
No. And when they speak up, it’s like, well, where did they? What do they have to gain from speaking up on others behalf so people know it’s right. It’s very risky and and people know it has to be from a genuine place and it really opens the door to other people that may not identify as quote UN quote, diverse, right. Or don’t think they have their own diversity.
Jennifer Brown
Oh oh, I think it’s risky.
Speaker
Yeah.
Julie Kratz
Story like you do such a great job of facilitating that out. And when we give people permission to be vulnerable, right, and have that brave space where they can really bring their full self to work, it’s magical. I mean, one of my favorite experiences is what you’re describing. What I miss so much in the pandemic virtual speaking environment, although it’s been, you know, been great. I think we’re learning a lot about how people can learn virtually, but stepping into those rooms.
Jennifer Brown
We are here.
Julie Kratz
Especially with white men. And looking and I think, wow, this is a real opportunity to really change the dynamics because oftentimes, Jennifer, you and I are are kind of preaching to the choir. We’re talking to people that. Already very much our allies and getting the folks in the middle the the, you know, column middle on the fringe sometimes or you know people that want to get it they just don’t get it yet. You’re they’re unaware probably in your categories and totally. Of awareness, it’s like ohh, I’d be a little push here. We gotcha. You know you’re in.
Jennifer Brown
Gotcha. It’s safe like leap and the net will appear, which is, you know, easy for us to. Say but I.
Julie Kratz
Promise you will be so much better on the other side.
Jennifer Brown
The net the.
Speaker
Right.
Jennifer Brown
Oh, I know. Chuck Shelton calls them lagging, learning and leading and I always, I always love that framework too, the laggards and the learners. And it’s also the the bell curve, right that big, that big middle in the curve. You know, that’s the the most people you can influence are not the early adopters who are already there, who you need to activate.
Julie Kratz
Right.
Jennifer Brown
Right, we need to support our early adopters, support them as much as you can. Everybody like prop them up, give them kudos, recognize them, encourage them. Ask them to do more. But there’s this whole kind of messy middle of the learner category to use Chuck’s framework that I think there’s the most potential for. Getting things because they’re the biggest group and then the laggards like the argument can be made. We leave that we know. Sometimes in performance management in any HR, and there’s a lot of different theories. But do you leave them behind? You know, do you not put a lot of effort towards? The biggest resistors, the most skeptical. You know, I I I struggle to leave anyone behind, honestly, theoretically. And in real terms, but I. I also think some of the biggest transformation can be from a resistor to a champion and there are there are many stories like that right? So I just like to go and try to, you know, drag as many people out of the burning House of change as I can. And I think of it like this metaphor comes to mind, that there’s so many, they’re just asleep.
Julie Kratz
Oh wow.
Jennifer Brown
And they just don’t. Many people right and it’s like, let me get you out of this burning house like. Me, you know, but it takes a lot of work and it’s really exhausting, Julie, like, I don’t know if you feel exhausted. I.
Julie Kratz
Yeah. Oh, compassion fatigue.
Jennifer Brown
I mean it’s so and I don’t know. Like, do you want to be saved from the burning house? Like do you care? Like I I go down to this dark place about like my own energy, you know, and making sure like I’m giving it to the people that want change as much as I do. But I’m also really torn because like I I I need. I need us all to go together, cause we go better and further together to quote the African proverb and. And and I don’t I I don’t like to leave anyone behind. I don’t. But there is that question and then we have to pace ourselves and make sure we’re healthy in.
Julie Kratz
This work. Yeah. Yeah. Jennifer, so many. I love your metaphorical language. It can just visualize everything you’re saying. And these tough concepts to describe for people. Cool. But yeah, wanting everyone to be there and realizing we’re not going to get everybody, but most of the data shows they know Dolly Chugh does a great job in her work. Kind of a good focus on that 20%. That doesn’t want to get it. Probably not the best use of our time.
Speaker
Yes.
Julie Kratz
It’s hard. It’s hard.
Jennifer Brown
I mean, but it’s hard to leave it alone. It’s almost like. I don’t know. It’s like the the the moth and the screen door. Like just hitting the screen like I want it so much like it’s the battle that I’m that’s the hill. I’m going to die on sort of thing like.
Julie Kratz
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Brown
You know, it’s the challenge too. I mean, I I probably part of me loves a good challenge and and thinking about how can I make this argument.
Julie Kratz
Yeah. How can I make it land?
Jennifer Brown
Are the 15 different ways? Yeah, we love, we love.
Julie Kratz
Check this. A child. I have family members that I’m having that. Yeah. What I what I have found that that it’s really hard and personal relationships, obviously different dynamics there. But I can say what I’ve learned in the course of the summer and in few of my family members really waking up to this, that sleeping analogy is so relevant.
Jennifer Brown
And we do.
Julie Kratz
Is listening so and I find it to be exhausting, but listening to their side and their viewpoints about. I just you. He honestly was. Honey, I just don’t see it. Julie. I just don’t see how racism still happens. Like what? You know, everything inside me is like what?
Jennifer Brown
Like I can’t deal with that.
Julie Kratz
Slow that mind down that my bias, right? Like, how can you be related to me?
Jennifer Brown
Where did I come from? Is the question right? I end up going like back through my ancestors and kind of hunting around for someone like anyone that believes what I believed. And then I have to go into past lives and like think. Maybe it was another Galaxy.
Julie Kratz
And and I’ve been in terms of my own racial past, I I was. I mean, I love my parents. They they’ve passed. And so I don’t want to speak ill of them, but I realized that there was a lot of racism in my home growing up and a lot of negative language. And we didn’t have good conversations about it myself. So.
Jennifer Brown
Don’t know.
Julie Kratz
So I don’t know where my journey started. Honestly it just started and I I truly believe anyone can get on that journey much like you do. But listen to people meet them where they’re at. You’ve got to start.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Brown
Leave them the first time like believe. Yeah, like that’s what drives me crazy. The the evidence is there and but we live in this fake news world. Where even sort of first person heartfelt testimonials about being stopped by police or whatever like that. I guess some people think it’s just it’s manufactured for some kind of and so now or gosh, I thought it was enough. Like all the witnessing of the pain and the inequities would be enough to kind of show.
Speaker
Right.
Jennifer Brown
People for the first time this last couple of months like this actually happens and you can believe it because it’s true. But then we live in the strange netherworld now of of introducing doubt into everything we hear. And I. So now I’m sort of like, what do I do with that? I thought I, you know, I I thought it would be enough to kind of make sure that people were just exposed to the truth. But when you’re living in a society where the truth is being attacked. All the time. Where do we go from there? And that’s that’s we’re heading, you know, 90 days away from the. And I I worry so much. I worry about the focus being pulled from the very important, you know, times we’re in right now with black lives and our, our, our sort of sort of accelerated learning journey that we’re on right now. I I worry about being distracted from that. I worry about it being invalidated, the new cycle moving on. But I I really do worry about.
Julie Kratz
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown
Democracy in general, so I. Our role as truth tellers, we’ve just got to hang on and continue to witness and and do the work. I guess with, with companies and leaders who are not going to be swayed by all this and the good news is that, you know, I think our our corporate clients and so many leaders, you and I get to work with Julie I think are. You know are are all about progress and you know what’s concrete and what’s true. And you know, I’m not seeing a lot of that other stuff. I just spoke about permit. Meeting, you know, as critical as we may be about the workplace and about employers and about brands who are messing up constantly and you know, CEO’s who are stepping down because of bad behavior like, I mean it’s like in my clients, literally I could tell you like 3 clients we work with where the CEO’s have. Literally. Stepped down in the last. Couple of weeks.
Julie Kratz
Wow.
Jennifer Brown
Oh my gosh. But but the but the private company world is also where some of the most beautiful inclusion commitments are being made right now. And commitments to equity. And so I do. I do want to honor that. And that’s what keeps me going. That the private sector and how it protects its employees and how it stands up for them and how it’s involved in LGBTQ issues or, you know, we’re doing its work on, you know, anti racism in the workplace or standing up with voting rights and and sort of accessibility. And being against voter suppression and you know, I know that there’s, I think we’re going to see companies really becoming much more. Values driven more overt about what their their values are when it comes to inclusion, I’d hesitate to say political because I don’t think this stuff. Is political. However, it may be viewed as political, right? I know, yes, it’s human. It’s all about like, hey, people make our enterprise run and people are diverse in so many different ways and we want you to feel like you have a home.
Julie Kratz
Correct human.
Jennifer Brown
Here we want you to feel safe within our virtual or real walls. And and we want you to know we stand by you. We stand by you and what you’re about and what your pain points are, what your equity struggles are and that I think is such a shining light, particularly in the dark times of sort of the government not doing that or, you know, I have. So I I put a lot of hope. Into those institutions to lead the way on a lot of this and those leaders in those institutions to lead the way because they have so much power, they have the commercial power, they have the power of the marketplace, they have, you know, the, the, the media voice they have ad campaigns that can change hearts and minds. You know, and I mean, yes, they don’t do this perfectly, but I’m here to try to make sure. It and make sure that you know the story they’re telling matches the experience of the employees too, which is the other big disconnect.
Julie Kratz
Yes, be authentic.
Jennifer Brown
Yeah. All right. So so that’s our work. You know, we have to help them kind of learn and, but I think a. Lot of possible. Company companies large and small, not just the big ones. The little ones are getting on board too, and we have many more clients now who are small companies like 100 people, 200 people, 500 people. We want to do this diversity thing. We want to get it right. We need a strategy. We need a team, you know? So it’s really exciting.
Julie Kratz
That is so exciting, Jennifer. Well, I know you. Your time is precious, and I I want to make sure our listeners know a way that they can connect with you following the episode. What? And I know we’ve got. So we’ve talked about the will to change the podcast. That’s one how to be an inclusive leader. The. Book but also what are the best ways? I know you’ve got a great quiz that people can take to find out how inclusive they are as well. So tell us where our listeners can stay in touch with you.
Jennifer Brown
Thank you. So yes, the will to change podcast. I have two books on inclusion which we’ve talked about today. Both of them are being read in a lot of book clubs as I’m sure yours are two Julie. So great idea to kind of get this into the hands and the hearts of. People, particularly, there’s not a lot of budget dollars. My inclusive leader assessment, which you just referenced is on jenniferbrownspeaks.com. So you can go there and look up the assessment and take it for free. It takes like 10 minutes and you’ll get a report with some helpful resources and also we’ll sort of help bring the model in how to be an inclusive leader of the book. Will come alive if you’re equipped with those results and then in social media, please follow me. I’m very active on Twitter. It’s at Jennifer Brown. I’m on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram. As Jennifer Brown speaks and I think that’s all the goodies and places and.
Julie Kratz
Yes, well, we’ll wait long.
Jennifer Brown
Yes, please. We have these community calls every week and so if you’d like to get on those, we, we we market those a lot of my social media. So you’ll see the link either in my LinkedIn or Twitter and how to join them. But please get involved and just join our community. It’s so it’s so great. It’s full of people like Julie and others.
Julie Kratz
So wonderful. It’s so replenishing the year that’s been so hard for so many people to have a community to come together and to know that you’re not alone. It’s so powerful. Thank you for doing those.
Jennifer Brown
It’s really awesome. It’s been great for me. It’s been good for my heart too.
Julie Kratz
Well, I think so thankful for you, Jennifer. Thank you for the work you do. Thank you for the candid conversation. We went so many different directions and obviously we got like 20 of these conversations. You sharing your wisdom with us and we’ll we’ll definitely we’ve had Jennifer before on one of our first seasons of the podcast.
Jennifer Brown
I have.
Julie Kratz
So I’m sure there will be another time in the future, but we’ll have you back so. Thank you for joining us.
Jennifer Brown
Jointly help. So thanks, Julie for the work you do.
Julie Kratz
Thanks everyone for listening to this episode. Who do you know that needs to hear? The message hit the share button, connect with Jennifer and I on LinkedIn, you can simply search our names. Jennifer Brown. Julie Crafts and find this episode and share it. Every review helps other allies find us. I host this podcast because we’re stronger together we are one.