Julie Kratz
Welcome to the next Pivot Point podcast. This season I’m focused on sharing stories and ideas from experts on diversity and inclusion. In this episode, I will share some insights and ideas from my guest expert you’ve radsky, and together we will leave you with some actionable tips to think about and discuss with your organization. We share this information. Because inclusive leadership’s a journey, it requires bravery and courage. And you don’t have to do this alone. And next pivot point, I believe we’re stronger together. We are one. So let’s meet Eve. Eve received her BA in Economics and Anthropology from University of Michigan, and her JD from Harvard Law School. Woohoo. And after working in foundation. Management at JP Morgan, she founded the Philanthropy Advisory Group to advise high net worth families and charitable foundations on best practices for harmonious Operations, governance and disposition of funds. In her work with hundreds of families over a decade, she realized that her expertise in family mediation, strategy and organizational management could be applied to a problem closer to home, assist them for couples seeking balance, efficiency and peace in their home Radsky was born and raised by a single mom in New York City and now lives in. Los Angeles, with her husband and three children. Welcome, Eve, so excited to have.
Eve Rodsky
Thank you, Julie. I love your work so. I’m really happy to be here.
Julie Kratz
Uh, I love your work too. What a what? A rich background you have. And I I can identify being raised by a single mother myself. And now having multiple children and a husband and a framework that I didn’t grow up in myself knowing how to navigate work life. I just saw my mom do it all. I can only imagine how that background and experience brings you full your full human self into the work that you do. So tell us, how did you get into this? Like we know your your, your professional experience, but like, how did you find a a purpose and work around around work, life integration and? And helping couples and and challenges with work and life and how to how that investments question how to balance it all.
Eve Rodsky
Yeah, I think well, right we can, I think throw that question out, which is good balance or at least shame that comes with that.
Speaker
Right.
Eve Rodsky
But it’s interesting for me because we, you know, this, this was not my life goal. Work on work, life integration. It wasn’t my lifes goal to talk about the mental load because I actually thought that I had it figured out. Julie, right? I I had, you know. I had a husband that. Super fair. Before kids I had, I I use my voice. I’m as you said so beautifully. I’m a Harvard trained lawyer and mediator. Use my voice. I had all that privilege. I’m the product of a single mother, so I vowed that I would never do it all because I watched how much she struggled trying to do that. I. Had all the privilege and.
Julie Kratz
MHM.
Eve Rodsky
Then. I still end up in a place where my life was crashing down around me and I talked about that in fair play 8 years ago over text. That sent me. That said, I’m surprised you didn’t get blueberries. That text. Had me crying on the side of the road and thinking to myself, well, I guess I was really thinking right. Julie was like, how cliche that my marriage is ending over? Who’s buying, who’s fulfilling who’s smoothie? Right. But really the issue was. How did this happen to me? Where I was in a place?
Julie Kratz
Mm-hmm.
Eve Rodsky
Your marriage combo? I thought I would have.
Julie Kratz
M.
Eve Rodsky
That to me. Was a question I was asking for myself. Not for anybody else. And that left me on. It led me on a quest, really. An 8 year quest to understand why I was the default for every single household and childcare task. That’s why I call it the default, because this is a hetero, cisgender issue. These patterns do play out. Same sex couples, but a lot of this heteronormative behaviors and expectations. They need to be. Unpacked, I do I do.
Speaker
Yeah.
Julie Kratz
Yeah. Yeah. No, I understand the text about blueberries. It’s it’s like the little thing that just added to the pile of everything. Like, really.
Eve Rodsky
Yeah, well, that day you can picture the scene, right? I had the breast pump in the diaper bag in the passenger seat of the car. I had opted out of the traditional workforce, Julie, because I put that now in quotes. Because now I know subsequently that I was pushed out, right. But then I thought, well, I it’s great, I get more flexibility if I can start my own firm and leave the corporate work. So I declined contract in my lab. I was racing to get my older son Zach at his toddler transition program. I just had my son Ben. I had a pen that was stabbing me in the vagina every time I would hit the brakes because I was marking up the contract with in on my lap in the car that that type of. Overwhelm. I think a lot of women can especially relate to now with what’s happening, but this is not a new problem, right? I think the invisible is now just literally visible on zoom, because for the first time in our lives. Our work and our family life and our schools and our religious institutions are under one roof. That’s never happened. Revolution. So I think it’s definitely shining a light on these issues, but they’ve been here, as you said, for for many years.
Speaker
MM.
Julie Kratz
Yeah, it is interesting where we’re at in 2020 and I love that we, we threw out work life balance because that obviously suggests that it’s just it’s it’s in constant harmony which we know it’s more like a seesaw goes back and forth unless the words integration or management or. More fair to describe.
Eve Rodsky
Yeah. And also when you think about like the idea of work and life, you know, some scholars really point out that your work is included in your life, right. So it looks more like a it’s not even a Venn diagram. It’s like a little work should be a little circle and your big life circle. Right. And so the idea that we pull work out, it’s something so special. Compared to life, it’s a it’s always been a strange economy and I never thought framework.
Julie Kratz
No. Well, and so much of the modern workplace is built off the Mad Men era of the 1950s. And what worked when you? Had a housewife at home for the most part to, to your point about heterosis gender structures, and you had a man that worked and that was really what he did. And she did all the other stuff. And then, you know, that you have women now participating in the workforce and leading and managing. And how does she do? It all comes up way too often. Still in 2020. So tell us, where are we at in 2020? Why are we still having this conversation?
Eve Rodsky
Oh my gosh, Julie. Well, first of all, thank you for being a culture warrior and having a conversation with us. And I’m sure between the two of us. Somebody will be interrupted, right? Because women, on average get interrupted every 3 minutes and 42 seconds right now. And that’s fine. We’ll welcome that noise. We’ll welcome the kids. It’s part of life as we just said, our integrated life. But This is why I think we’re having these conversations because we’re not looking at the home correctly, Julie, this is how what I’ve my core finding a fair play. The problem with the home is what my. Favorite sociologist he Wright Mills said years and years ago, this idea that private lives are public issues and is that it’s.
Julie Kratz
Hmm.
Eve Rodsky
They domain that people think that they are fighting over blueberries like you said before, right, these small things people think that they’re relationships are ending over a glue stick like this man in White Plains, he said. His marriage is ending over a glue stick and that’s how it feels in the moment. Step back and realize that this is not an individual problem, but this is a systemic problem. And a system that doesn’t work for men either. And This is why fair play became a love letter to men. There’s some really interesting statistics about how how much, how toxic sort of this breadwinner pressure and role is for men. Right. And that they want to spend. More time with. Their children, they’re often penalized, but as well as well. This comes down to this. Idea of how we view the ideal worker, but especially why are we talking about this for women? Why do we still talk about invisible work? Which has been with that term, was coined in 1986, a long time ago, or even Virginia Woolf, who said a woman couldn’t be Shakespeare because, you know, I’m summarizing here. But you know, because her she didn’t have an unencumbered mind. So these these conversations have been going on for 100 years. But what I noticed that was different is that if you can step out of the home and realize this is not about blueberries or glue sticks, about how we view and value time, everything changes. So what do I mean by that? Well. The core finding of Fair play was this idea that as a society, bad things happen when we treat and view and value men’s time as finite, like diamonds value and treat women’s time is infinite like sand because. We know in the workplace that leads to a lot of pay equity issues, right? So if you’re a woman of color sense in the dollar, if you’re a white woman, it’s more like $0.80 in the dollar to every white, non Hispanic man.
Julie Kratz
MM.
Eve Rodsky
But it was the home Julie, and This is why I ultimately decided to talk to women. It was the home where I was seeing what I call the most toxic time messages from women. Value their own time because when I would ask questions to so many beautiful, powerful women, things like why are you the one taking the call from the? School. Why tell me about that? Right and so. I would hear a couple of answers. One was well, my husband makes more money than me. He holds the health insurance more flexibility, but we only enter enter that flexible flexibility because we’re opting out of traditional corporate workplaces like I did because we feel like we have to have it all. It becomes a terrible cycle. It also implies that because I chose philanthropy, Julie. That I’m I’m now relegated to the invisible domestic work forever because my husband chose private equity right. I would argue my work is more valuable. And this my time is money argument is.
Speaker
Never.
Eve Rodsky
For women, so let’s throw that out. But then what about the argument? Well, I’m a better multitasker, right? I’m. I’m at my superpower is multitasking. My partner is better at focusing on one task at a time, so for that message I had to unpack it with a top neuroscientist in this country who said to me when I asked him, are women better multitaskers? He said. Well, even imagine we can we men can convince you women. That you’re better at wiping ***** and doing dishes. How great for my career and sanity and triathlete law, and I want to fall for whatever, you know, so. That hurt hit me hard because I think as a single parent, a single child of a single mother like you said, this idea, I can do it all. I don’t need you. The the multitasking being a superpower. Like a badge of honor to me as opposed to a toxic tie. Message is now I we reframe it in fair play. And then the other most popular message.
Julie Kratz
MM. Mm-hmm.
Eve Rodsky
From women was this idea well, in the time it takes me to tell?
Speaker
Well.
Eve Rodsky
Him or her? They what to do. I might as well do it myself. And that one I went to Dan Ariely, who’s a good friend and top behavioral economist. And I said, is that a good argument for women? And he said it’s a terrible argument. Of course you wanted somebody how to wipe the ***** or do the dishes because it’s at the expense of your fine night time. I think that’s why we’re having these conversations because it takes.
Julie Kratz
Yeah.
Eve Rodsky
An entire generation of women to reframe how we’ve been taught to view our own time, our. Time is not in. We only get 24 hours in a day and time is time. It is not money and unfortunately. That’s an entire that’s an entire movement. That’s an entire value. Yeah, really long time to start, really. Actually internalizing that my time was as. Valuable as this time?
Julie Kratz
So, well, set on so many levels. It is a perception of time at the core of the excuses of the things we tell ourselves to justify. The decisions we make. And the emotions around it from all genders, it’s fascinating to think how that’s really at the core of the issue, the perception time and the value that we put on women’s work versus men’s work. You know, it’s interesting. I have my own business and my husband’s a stay at home Dad and the questions. You can’t, right? You can just imagine, still in 2020 the questions we get around. Well, what does he really do or what did he do before there’s something wrong with him? Uh, and I would say the societal pressure, the systemic issues you’re talking about, even though I have his name, is the emergency contact, even though he is still one that should be working with the school, but they still default to.
Eve Rodsky
Me.
Julie Kratz
I still get the emails from the moms from the teacher and I’m like. Why this is not the way we’ve. Set it up.
Eve Rodsky
And I did. I actually called schools and I asked them why do you call the mothers? And a lot of the answers were these veiled, toxic time messages of, well, we don’t want to bother the man, right? It was. It was the same kind of guarding of. Her name is there 1st and you know if we don’t reach her, you know it’s OK. We’ll just keep calling her 100 times and not go to the next name on the list. Right? It was this idea of. Like I said it, it was almost like there’s a barrier up and to penetrate that barrier to bother a man. Is still considered subversive in the 21st century. When I went to Davos, I got to ask world leaders said, well, what? And I said, well, I call on all of you men who write, who are the CEO’s of your companies to be the first on your call list from your school and to pick up those phone calls in board. Meetings in meetings with your employees. Model this behavior that you are an integrated human being with caregiving responsibilities that. Is. Powerful thing we can do right now.
Julie Kratz
Model it from the top absolutely reminds me of Melinda Gates in her book moment of life talks about gates picks up the kids from school and how all the other dads are like, oh, wow, if Bill Gates can pick up this kid, I probably need to step up my game.
Eve Rodsky
Yeah. Yes. Absolutely, Robin.
Julie Kratz
Positive peer pressure. Because I think it’s emasculating a lot of times for my husband when he compares notes, he’ll go golfing occasionally with his his friends, and if they get paired up with somebody, it’s always the question about, well, what do you do? And he’ll usually start with my wife, and I have a business around diversity and inclusion, and then they they kind of go a bit deeper. And then he feels like. Shame. You know, he feels it’s like defensiveness or shame in that conversation. Well, it’s really, you know, it’s her business, but I support the family part of it to make it happen. And they they kind of give him this oddball look. And it just seems so unfortunate to me that it has to be like that. Still, that people don’t more openly embrace it. But I think it’s because of what you’re saying. It hasn’t been modeled for them. They probably did not experience that from their parents. Right. And we just know what we’ve experienced ourselves. And so we find it strange to have these new frameworks, these new ones, as to look on family. Structure. That should be more inclusive. Now we’re still evolving our perceptions with what’s happening in real life.
Eve Rodsky
You know, it’s it. It does get back to the value of care because so many stay at home mothers. They would tell me that that’s the number one question that. They get. What did you do?
Julie Kratz
Yeah.
Eve Rodsky
I’m trying to figure out who you are, right? That it’s not enough that you’re a caregiver right now, right? So there that that pressure is happens to men, women, you know, anybody in the same sex relationship in a lot of. Ways. Who’s the I have so. How many gay couples who tell me that weird people ask them, you know, not weird, but like, you know, annoying people. Ask them, like, who’s the man? And. Who’s the? Woman. In the religion and like, how about you learn from us? There’s actually no gendered framework to start from about who has to be the quote, UN quote, mother to these children. So you know. It’s instead of looking at other examples right of maybe non binary couples or couples for for modeling, we’re trying to fit everybody into this stupid heteronormative box, and so that also happens to your husband and that we see him. We see all his invisible work. It’s valued and that as a society, you know, Julie, nothing is going to change until we we value holding our child’s hand in the pediatrician’s office as much as an hour in the boardroom comes down to. That’s the movement.
Julie Kratz
Yeah. That’s. That’s so well said. Yeah, it it’s it when we’re. We’re a ways away from that. Right where the value we place on spending with probably the most important relationships you have in your life with your children is some somehow not the same as the boardroom the presentation or the report that you have to get out. Well, and so just like with time, the perception of it, right, the value we put on it the same as the time that we spend in our home and life or Spears versus our work Spears. I love that. Eve to build off of that, I. Know you work with. Couples and kind of practical strategies, corporations and practical strategies to bring the work and life together, to integrate it. And I think everybody’s always. Looking for these magic? Solutions, right? Just like tell me how to solve. My glue stick blueberry problem. You know, it’s so much more in depth than that thing that happens. But when that said, what do you find to be most helpful for people that are really struggling? And of course, in the pandemic, we know these issues have been exacerbated as we’ve integrated work and life much more fully, much more quickly. What would you offer is tangible techniques or strategies you’re seeing work for, for people in their homes? As well as corporations that want to get better at offering this, you know, to, to working with employees where they’re at right.
Eve Rodsky
Yeah, I I have a framework that actually works and it really it’s data tested and you know fair play is a book that is not just me espousing or pontificating, right. There’s 10 expert disciplines that I draw from and and years, years, literally years of. Needed testing couples and. But I found is that it really just take. It’s very simple. It takes three things, but as everything simple right, the idea of donate sugar. That sounds simple, but then it’s harder, right? Because I say I’m looking at these purple gumballs that are. You’re right. My desk said someone sent me and I’m like, I just want that gumball, so it really is just three things. And I believe in the power posted. So I always remind myself and this. Is the. But it’s about boundaries, systems and communication systems and communication. So what do I mean by that? Well, if you unpack boundaries and this works in the workplace too. But what we’re talking here about is the the home application. Boundaries. Is it back to time? That it’s this idea of reframing time so that you recognize. Internally that you just have 24 hours in a day and that you can start guarding your time like diamonds. And what I mean by that is too many women all walks of life. When I asked them, do they believe they have a permission? To be unavailable. Outside of their work, there are three P’s right, professional or worker. If they’re not considered a professional and who people identified as working for where my data set as well. But you know, outside of a work being a professional, a parent and a partner, do you believe you have a permission to be unavailable?
Julie Kratz
OK.
Eve Rodsky
To yourself, outside of those roles. And just, I mean, when I thought that it was a very small minority, especially of women, who said that they believe that they were entitled to their own time. So I think this idea of I talked about it in fair play called Unicorn Space, but it’s what you’re doing, Julie, probably in your workplace because you get to maybe with those lucky, lucky people.
Julie Kratz
Yeah.
Speaker
To find.
Eve Rodsky
But you know. Even not before. This idea of what like a mythical Unicorn, right? This idea of a magical space and time for to to bring you you back doesn’t ******* exist. It just doesn’t. Unicorn, but unless you really reclaim it, and that’s the boundaries piece of saying and so Professor Laurie Santos, she runs a a happiness class at Yale. She says it a little differently. She says, make your leisure time nutritious. But what I found is that the more you have active pursuits, So what I mean by a passive pursuit is more like taking a bath that would be self-care or eating a pie back to my love of sugar. But the active pursuit is the baking of the pie. It’s the not listening to a podcast. It’s interviewing somebody for a podcast. It’s the active. Pursuit. And that’s making your leisure time nutritious. And what happens with active pursuits is it’s actually easier to use your voice to ask for that time. So instead of saying guide kids, I’m not going to see you for two hours. I got to go binge watch Netflix. Right. Saying things like sorry I signed up for my box class and I I can’t. I’m not available from 7:00 to 9:00 because we’re doing it for vital in a month on zoom. And so that’s what I see happening all over. When we’re cleaning our. We get we get boundaries. So that’s really. The step one.
Julie Kratz
I love that. When I can resonate with that so and that resonates so much with me because. Who does feel selfish? Asking for boundaries or having to justify time you’re spending on yourself? But I realize on the other side of that right for me it’s my walks sometimes now being at the time we’re recording this, I’m very pregnant. So I’m taking baths and sitting in my chair just. Not really doing anything, so I’m not actively pursuing anything, but I will say in my mind just clearing my mind, it’s so healthy. For me on the other side of that, I’m more present for my family. I’m more present for myself. My emotions are in check. I don’t have explosions, so carving out that time I think are we call active pursuits. It’s so valuable for everyone else around you when you really do it purposefully and and with. Things that you’re passionate about.
Eve Rodsky
Absolutely. What I would say for you, I’m I’m going to just say that I believe your Unicorn space is your work. In many ways, I. Think it’s.
Julie Kratz
You know, yeah.
Eve Rodsky
And so I think people who have their Unicorn space as their job. But I do notice is that they often are ignoring adult friendships and self-care. So for you, it’s actually really important for you to take your walks and take your baths, because then it inspires new ideas for, you know, your business. Which is really exciting.
Julie Kratz
And it’s so insightful. I had never thought about it that way, but I need my headspace and talking to people like yourself all day, which I love and I get so much energy out of, but I gotta recharge, right? I have to transition time between the work and the life. And so I’ve learned that the.
Eve Rodsky
Park.
Julie Kratz
Hard way of trying to just power through and you got to give yourself some recharge time.
Eve Rodsky
Yeah, that 1% battery analogy I. Think is what? And the other two really important pieces is the systems part is really the core of Fair play and it’s not rocket science, Julie. I mean, the good news is, thank God. Carol Dweck came out because everybody sort of talked about the growth mindset now. So they.
Julie Kratz
Yeah.
Eve Rodsky
Can. End that and all fair play is is an ownership. It looks at the the the 50 years of organizational science and positive. Organizational management work out there and and the work on autonomy and motivation, and also what tradition what? Sorry, 21st century workplaces are doing well and a lot of times what they are doing well is this idea of context not control. You don’t walk into your boss’s office and say, hey, what should I be doing today?
Julie Kratz
And.
Eve Rodsky
I’ll wait here to tell me what to. Do that doesn’t fly in the workplace, and that wouldn’t make it very meaningful for you as a worker. But that’s what we do at home. And men, sadly, are are also not bending for benefiting from a lack of system because what happens is that we’re sort of dying in decision fatigue. So we end up in this scorekeeping mode of, like, well, you took out the dog. Last night, so you have to take out the dog this morning or deciding who’s setting the table when we’re already hungry and cranky. It’s just.
Julie Kratz
It’s.
Eve Rodsky
Even my Aunt Mariano’s Mahjong group truly has more. Dictations in the home you don’t bring snack twice to that group, you’re out. But so when you start getting your home is your most important organization. Everything changes because when you start giving it some respect and rigor, then you realize, oh, wait a second, we should be really talking about who’s in charge of garbage. Right. We should be talking about who’s handling this home maintenance.
Speaker
Room.
Eve Rodsky
To finish. So that’s that’s fair. Play ownership mindset based on the idea that when you hold a task for your family and I have a metaphorical card game of 100 cards that show you the tasks, you can always make your own. But I’ve found that this is a pretty much a closed system. There’s a lot of the 100 cards that are represent most of what people.
Julie Kratz
Yes.
Eve Rodsky
Holding a card? You’re holding it with what I call full conception planning and execution, so that.
Speaker
MM.
Eve Rodsky
The cognitive labor, the mental load, what a lot of women are saying is the worst thing that they hate about home life goes away and the number one thing men said they hated about home life, to me was that. They could never. Get anything right that they feel feel nagged so that that is eliminated when you can adopt an ownership mindset.
Julie Kratz
Oh, I love that. I love that. It’s like divide and conquer. Take the 100 cards and get them as evenly split as you can. What works for you? I mean that.
Eve Rodsky
Yeah.
Speaker
It works.
Julie Kratz
He it. It’s funny. I often share that as a strategy when I’m talking about work life integration. It’s like, hey, my house. It’s kind of like 7030. I only do about 30% of the stuff in the House, but I also do a lot of the, you know, work and that piece of it that my husband does not. Do.
Eve Rodsky
And by the way, that’s a really good. Split like, that’s the thing. So in a situation where there’s a primary breadwinner, how could I say that your household should be 5050?
Julie Kratz
Right.
Eve Rodsky
5052 music completely fundamentally wrong equation because as you were saying earlier, Julie, it’s that seesaw right things will go back into the workforce and then you’ll be at home like, who knows what’s going to happen. But it’s this idea being flexible and saying that nothing is off, off limit. I scrubbed toilets because it’s the right thing to do for our family. Not because I’m engendered. Identifies a woman, right? So it’s looking at the perceived fairness. The sign shows the perceived fairness is actually more important than actual. And then. So all fair plays about is coming up with customized defaults, so that your perceived fairness feels fair to you and to your partner. And that will. Over your lifetime. And that gets to the third thing. That’s the communication.
Julie Kratz
Yeah, no, I’ve been wow.
Eve Rodsky
That’s the that’s the end, right? All you got.
Julie Kratz
Yeah, yeah. And and really have what I found too. I mean, to your point about the women women that delegate and then kind of like, oh, he didn’t do it the right way or, you know, I I really struggled with that with grocery shopping, for example, that was something near and dear to my heart that I had to let go of and delegate. And that’s his task. Now you’re talking about communication. It’s, you know, I still help build the list. We collaborate on it. We do talk about it back and forth to make sure we have a clear understanding of what success looks like at the store.
Speaker
Yeah.
Julie Kratz
Right. You know, last week he lost the list halfway through the trip, and he did his best. And old me would scold and get angry and think he did it on purpose to undermine me. Which of course is not true. Right. And then I thought, you know what? It happens, it’s happened. To me before.
Eve Rodsky
And may have blamed you for not getting the list right, but now he’s like I own this, right. So my bad. I can go back when I can, right? It’s this idea of when it’s already in your domain, right. He split that domain with you. That’s his domain. And the blame doesn’t come back on you. I know someone coming in my data said saying that they were blamed when the tooth fairy didn’t come from Hong Kong because they forgot to remind their partners. I mean, that just doesn’t. It’s ridiculous. It’s so 20th century. And by the way, that is, I will say that that is. The beauty of Fair play is this idea that for men. The reason why they’re bringing home spicy Dijon every ******* time when I told them to bring home French is yellow, right is because we often are holding the conception and planning of those lists, not giving any context and then saying go. To the store.
Julie Kratz
MM.
Eve Rodsky
And so that’s why including someone in the planning sitting down coming up together with what success looks like. It sounds crazy that you’re like, we’re gonna plan. What success looks like for groceries. But honestly, the decision fatigue. It saves you. Seth and I plan with the success look like for garbage. And those types of. Customized defaults. Those conversations and deeper conversations around garbage, around groceries, they matter. And and they’re just as important as the conversations you have around your work.
Julie Kratz
Yeah. It’s so interesting to think about it that way, being intentional and being consistent with these things, using these tools over time. It’s been so good. Eve. I love uh, you’ve referenced them a bunch about fair play, your new book. So tell our listeners more how they can get their hands on a copy of that. The cards that go with it. Tell us more about your.
Eve Rodsky
Thank you. Yes, we the cards are coming out right now as we speak. So that’s really exciting. And again it says the table and then you can always find me two places fair play life. The Instagram handle on the website, there’s lots of tools there. All all free tools, you can just download because this is a cultural movement and you can always DM me at EVE rodsky if you have any specific questions because my team we we we answer all of our DM’s and make sure that we are always enjoying Instagram.
Julie Kratz
Hmm. That’s awesome. Well, I think the frameworks and the research that you’ve shared with us today is just such a full body of work that you’re doing and like you said, a cultural movement that we can all get back and so relevant and timely today.