Speaker 1
Well, we have a special guest back with us, Dr. Poornima Luthra. If you remember her from last season we talked about active allyship. Her book, which I highly recommend you go back and check out if you didn’t hear that, that’s a good prefold to this conversation. Pouring in, it joins us all the way from across the pond, and we’re gonna talk about differences and how things are going down right now with issues of diversity, equity inclusion. She is a professor at the Copenhagen Business School and she’s. Written three books, most recently leading through bias and love to talk about all things allyship, and is busy right now talking about women’s History, month and International Women’s Day. I’m so excited to talk with you.
Speaker 2
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for having me back. In fact, it’s it’s good to be back.
Speaker 1
Well, I’d. To hear you know, just right out of the get go hot takes on Dei right now, I think here in the states everyone’s really I think just kind of pausing and taking a collective breath of what is a legal dei. And you and I. That I’m not a lawyer, but not much of it is. However, there’s this perception that we have to hit pause. It could be unlawful, it could be targeted by activists, lawsuits, all sorts of things. I know in your part of. World. That’s not the. So I’m not for you just to. Us a window into your world. What’s going? What conversations are you having nowadays?
Speaker 2
Yeah, great question, Julie. Mean, you know. I recently wrote about this that you know when the US sneezes, the rest of us catch a cold, right? And that’s how it does. There’s a lot of conversations happening, certainly around what’s happening with the, you know, across the pond the other way where you are. But at the same time, I’m really. So when I, you know, come the end of January, I was thinking all right, this year Iwd international women say is going to be quiet. It’s usually my busy period with keynote. And I thought, all right, you know, this year is just going to be quiet. That’s just. How it is, but it hasn’t been and if anything, I feel like it’s gone the other way in in this part of the world where people were companies, even companies who have headquarters in the US or who have a huge presence in the US, they are taking a. On this side of the world, saying this is important to us and while. Our US operations or our headquarters aren’t doing able to do enough. Put it that way. We are able to do that and it is not illegal. Here it is, there’s. Yes there is. There are pockets of backlash and resistance, but it’s certainly not to the extent that we’re seeing happening in the US and so I’ve been really encouraged to see the number of events happening in companies. And actually, maybe also deeper conversations and I feel that that’s something that’s been a pivot point. I was doing a leadership training session yesterday on inclusive leadership for 85 leaders. And. At towards the end of the session, there was a man who. I suppose he felt safe enough to be able to share this, and he said, you know, prior to January 20th, he was quite sceptical about DI efforts and what it means for someone like him. He’s a white. What does it mean for me? But now seeing what has happened and unfolded in the US and how far the pendulum has swung the other way, and how extreme the reactions have been, or the actions that have been taken, he finds himself. Actually defending dei. And I thought that was such a fascinating take on it that, you know, in all this and and mind you, I’m also very careful to say, you know, that this is, you know, there there is these pockets of hope, I suppose, because a lot of people are ach. Now. Right. The trans community is aching. So many folks have are losing going to lose jobs, so this is there are real consequences for people. But at the same time this has also given us an opportunity for those of us working in this space. To really ask ourselves, how do we go? How do we enable the systemic and the cultural change to actually happen? For far too long, there has been the performative actions by organizations. Without necessarily the systemic. But there’s also been the 0 sum mentality that’s been created because of the way we’ve approached Dei. And so it’s also time for us to hold the mirror up to ourselves. And to say, well, how can we do this better? Can we hold ourselves? How can we bridge the gap? Because there’s such a divide right now, it almost feels like there’s this valley in between. And how do we try and bridge that? So I am. I do think things are moving. I. You know, forward in this part of the world. I’m not saying it’s going to continue to do so. I think there’s always. His resistance and backlash everywhere. I’ve spent the last two years studying this right and my new book that’s coming out in May really delves into this resistance and backlash. So yes, it’s not new, but it’s maybe at its peak you could say, but I suppose that is comes in waves and it just happens to be a period of time where it’s really extreme. Right now what the backlash is looking like.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that prenema. I think that is fascinating and I hope there are more reactions like that man and your class had. I suspect there are here too. People are just awfully quiet right now. So it’s hard to tell and I think. When we don’t have a lot of information or we don’t have certainty, we our brain fills in that uncertainty, as you know with assumptions and we must not care about this anymore. Going away. I find. You know, fighting that narrative in my head. Too, but you brought up a really interesting point. And I do. We do have research that backs this. Cokewell, if you’re familiar with their data surveyed white men not too long ago.
Speaker
Yeah.
Speaker 1
So about their perceptions. Run diversity, equity and. And they found the lion’s share. The majority of people are in that moveable middle, the persuadable, I think they call them and only 10% are kind of naysayers or detractors. But if you pay attention the news cycle, you think it’s all detractors. Exactly. Have any bias that we have?
Speaker 2
Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker 1
I mean headline, making noise.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And you know, there’s others research. I’m sure you’ve seen that data point where they write it as one in eight organizations are backtracking. What if we reframe that to, say, 7 out of eight are not right? It’s also how we’re presenting.
Speaker 1
That got me.
Speaker 2
How? Presenting information and what’s hitting the news cycles. I also think you know I call it stealth mode that organizations are in right now. As individuals are also to some extent we are, you know, quiet. That time. But what organizations are doing? I do believe that a lot of them are going into that stealth mode, where they’re still continuing some of the good work that they’ve been doing or have already put in place when it comes to systemic change. Of really really embedding it in hiring cycles, promotion cycles, thinking about inclusive design, inclusive marketing and continuing that work because it’s so embedded in how they do things. Even if on the surface they are saying. That they are backtracking or they’re removing targets or you know that they’re, you know, dismantling their DI team and roles. I do still think that they’re continuing the actual work that needs to be done.
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2
Maybe I’m too much of an optimist. I don’t know actually.
Speaker 1
I know I tend to agree with you and I get accused of being a little too optimistic. And what? Share and you know, I think there’s this fine balance between what we’d call, like, Pollyanna, you know, kind of this false naivete attitude. Everything’s great when it’s not kind of. I think of like care bear land. It’s. It’s not reality reality. Or the other place is doomsday like it’s all over. And just like the movable middle with most folks, I think most organizations are in that stealth mode, that moveable middle, whether it might take down the web page, the public proclamation. The title that can be very visible in a plate in a in a time when you don’t want that visibility and just quietly doing the work.
Speaker
Mm. Yes.
Speaker 1
Just like quiet quitting ’cause, I don’t want to suggest that they’re ready to quit. But it. Kind of like that concept of like. Doing the things to keep it running and when it’s time again to be louder about it, we’ll be. About. But we’re just gonna keep doing. Doing it in the background and like you said, inclusive hiring. Agree with. We’re seeing a lot of that and we’re also not talking about the risks of exclusion. It’s very costly and discrimination lawsuits, hiring mistakes like these things have big financial consequences. Inclusive hiring is just a smart business. To take on exactly. *******, what else? As far as like background, stealth mode activity?
Speaker
Yeah.
Speaker 1
Did you add in a list?
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know, and Julie talking about that middle first, you know, it’s so I I positioned myself as a realistic opt. And I think that’s the viewpoint that I take on this, that you know to do this. And to keep doing it for all the years that we have done it and want to continue doing it, you have to be that realistic optimist because on either other extremes, you rightfully point out whether it’s doomsday or overly naive. You can’t actually continue doing the work, right? It is that. Between. I think that we have the opportunity to keep that resilience, that strength to continue. So what are the things that companies can do are doing? Inclusive recruitment is a big part of it, and there’s a lot within that that we can do, right. Everything from thinking about the language that we’re using in job adverts. To thinking about where we’re casting the net, even right, and not going back to the same places, the same folks, the same platforms. But it’s also thinking about the very job description and what competencies do we have on it and really scrutinizing to say that is this list of competencies. What we really need for the job, for someone to be able to do. Job or. Does it reflect myself? Or perhaps someone who I think has been successful in the past or currently in doing that job? So we have to really ask ourselves those questions around what competencies. Are really necessary. And then of course, use that competencies that you you make a list for and divide them up into must haves and. And then take that into the interview process. But the interview process itself is one that is where there’s a lot of opportunity there in terms of really blocking bias and its influence on it, right? But it’s also just before they’re thinking about shortlisting candidates, you know, and thinking about anonymizing using online forms to have applicants, you know, apply for jobs so that you can. Remove. Demographic data or data that you think might. Influence those making the decisions to shortlist. And then when it comes to the interview process itself. Ensuring you’ll have a panel that has different backgrounds, experiences, skills that they’re bringing to the table, making sure it’s a structured interview process, even rethinking the interview process. Can we redesign it to be inclusive to neurodivergent? Folks who actually might be more productive on certain types of tasks, but they would never apply for the job because. Of that very interview process of needing to sit across someone and make eye contact for an hour. Right? So what if we could redesign that? There’s a wonderful company here in Denmark called. Translates to the specialists and what they do is actually to work with organizations around redesigning this process. And one of the things they work with is. Interviews over Lego.
Speaker 1
No.
Speaker 2
If everyone is building using their hands and their eyes are focused on that.
Speaker 1
I am.
Speaker 2
Well, you can still have a really rich conversation. But there’s no necessity to have maintain eye contact and also giving people the option, right? Kind of first interview round. Do you want to have? You prefer to maybe have it? Maybe you want to go for a walk. Maybe some accommodations need to be made. If there’s disabilities involved. So how do we cater for more inclusive interview processes that enable people to even consider applying for the job and then shortlisting them as well? Then you know once. Shortlisted for them to feel comfortable. Coming into the organization or doing it online and then it’s it’s the onboarding process. Are we? Who are we providing support to? Do we make certain assumptions around who needs more support in onboarding and who doesn’t? And then when we think about one of the companies that. Work with very large pharma. Company was also redefining how long onboarding should be, so we often think we and we assume we’d like to think and have people hit the ground running, right. Come in. We give them a quick onboarding and we want them to get going. But if you want to hire people from, let’s say, a different industry, and this is what this team wanted to do, they wanted to hire someone from a completely different industry because they could see that the direction they were going. When it comes to research and development, they. To think differently. And so they needed to get talent in from a different industry. But that also meant that the onboarding period would. Longer and so instead of thinking about how quickly someone can start performing on the job itself, what if we allowed a longer onboarding period of, let’s say, six months and that it was part of the journey?
Speaker 1
Mm.
Speaker 2
Of making sure that people feel included, that they adjust to the new company culture, understand this new industry and then start being able to provide different ways input into how things are being done to shape the organization. Into the future. And I think that’s fascinating when we think about it and to challenge our own assumptions around having someone hit the ground running. What does that actually mean? And is that really actually what’s best for the organization when it comes to innovation, when it comes to thinking differently? And then, of course, there’s the whole performance development of talent and thinking about pay inequity across Europe. I was just looking at some data around that, right. Significant pay inequity just on binary gender identity. And, you know, across EU, it’s quite difficult, at least for us in this part of the world to collect data based on any other real dimension that. You know, thinking about, you know, inequity when it comes to ethnicity or cultural background, nationality, even those are things we can’t do here with data protection laws. But those are important things that we we do need to put on the table and there are some companies that have found ways. You know, around this to be able to do it, to do it anonymously, to have voluntary surveys around. So there are ways to collect that data so that you can address that pay inequity not just on gender, but looking at other. Dimensions as well, and I’m thinking about performance management. How do we evaluate candidates? Sorry employees, what criteria are we using? Are we using the same kind of criteria as we look and and like look at our team? Are we thinking about the kind of feedback we’re? We know that there’s a lot of research that shows us that women are given. Different kind of. That’s not career promoting as opposed to the kind of feedback that men are given more constructive feedback that allows them to to further their careers. So plenty that we can do over there. Just on the this is just on the employee lifecycle and then you think about inclusive design and how do you? Some of those principles about thinking about the diversity of customers and designing for your the breadth of your customers while also being pragmatic and realistic about it. And when you work with, I work quite a lot with different R&D teams. Design teams of companies, and this is one of the challenges because of course, customers are really diverse. I mean each one of us is right. And so how do you then draw the, you know, drop the personas for who you’re designed. 4 but also, as you do this, and of course the limitations there. But also, how do you keep expanding that you keep challenging yourself around? Alright, we’re designing for this as a starting point. This particular type of person. How do we expand on that continuously so that we are being more inclusive, especially as we get more feedback from customers? How do we design more inclusively? And then we know and we know marketing, right? Oh my gosh. The kind of stories where marketing just goes wrong. Right. And and you also wonder how many pairs of eyes took a look at these marketing campaigns. And signed off on it and didn’t see that. Yeah, I didn’t see those biases that were there.
Speaker 1
Right.
Speaker 2
So these are some of the things that we look at in my latest book leading through bias, the one that was released last year. And so, yeah, there’s so much that companies can do, and these are not illegal from what I can tell. Mean. I’m not a lawyer by any.
Speaker 1
Same.
Speaker 2
Measure but. From what I can see, these are not illegal. Good practices to be. They create a level playing. They are all about fairness and as we know the word merit and meritocracy seem to be thrown around so much these days, you know, and there’s so much bias, of course, embedded with how we look at who has merit. Do we define merit in itself? Who do we think of? Has merit and the very idea of meritocracy. But if we take meritocracy and its definition is its true sense. These are the practices that enable that to happen so you know. I had a leader yesterday who came up to me and said, you know, people in his. Are. Saying we really need to base our decisions. On merit and. And he said, how do I address this? And I said, well, why don’t you just ask them, what would it take to create a system? A hiring process, for example. That is based on merit. Would that look? What would they put into? What measures would they put into place? Quite likely it’s going to be the things that we just talked about. And yes, those are the practices of DI. Or what should be the practices of DI efforts and you know one of the things I’ve been talking a lot about these days is we do have to hold the mirror up to ourselves. You know, for those of us who are working in this space and where have the narratives, perhaps not quite gone the way that we would, we should have addressed it. And have we created more division in society? We contributed to the division in society. I recently wrote a post on LinkedIn about. Before international women say, I thought to myself, should I write this or should I? Again, you know the fear. Like for me, even for those of us in this space, right?
Speaker 1
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2
Know should I or should I not? And it was about, you know, that we live in a world that’s too much of A about binary thinking. Like if you support women and advocate for women and equity in the workplace, then you are somehow labeled anti men, right? And as a mom of two boys I and as a university. Instructor, who teaches hundreds of young men who come through my classrooms. I’d like to think that I can do both and that there’s space to do both that I can absolutely advocate for.
Speaker
No.
Speaker 2
Gender equity for women and I can also absolutely understand.
Speaker
Send it.
Speaker 2
An advocate for the issues that men are playing and these don’t need to be in. Competition with each. The 0 sum mentality competition binary thinking. Oh, it really bothers. And that’s what’s created the divide. That’s what’s created it, because there’s a whole group, 50% of a population that feels like they’ve been alienated by this.
Speaker
For sure.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, it it kind of brings us back full circle to where we started with that moveable metal. There’s so much paradox in our work and, you know, teaching university and how difficult it is for our brains to straddle a paradox. Our brains really love concrete information. This good or bad, right or wrong. And Di never fit into. I have that. I don’t know. Gosh, a few years ago and I was trying to study. All I found was Bernad Brown’s research on it and she said that was one of the traits of inclusive leaders. Was like the biggest trait was holding paradox. And then I’ve tried to train my brain to have paradox of like, OK, this person said something and it’s usually with my family. Love them but. They’re a good person and they just said this. Know. Like swallowing. That is, it’s a lot easier to say than to actually believe.
Speaker 2
Absolutely. I mean, just at the weekend, I mean this is it’s just one of those things that happens like you know, I do believe my husband and I are really trying to raise feminist sons, we. And at the weekend we’ve been watching drive to survive, which is this. It’s a behind the scenes of Formula One and the new seasons out, so we’ve been watching it as a. Family and I happen to ask a question to the kids, you know, around. One of the race car drivers girlfriends seemed to be at all the different races, so I just asked. Said. Does she travel with him on for? The races. And. And my older son said to me. Yeah, but he earned so much money, she doesn’t need to work. Back. And I was just like, luckily, my husband held my hand and he went. He is your child. Gave birth to him be kind. ‘Cause all I wanted to do was explode in that moment. How on earth could my child say this right? But think about that social conditioning right at home. We are, you know, a dual career family. Sees both of us working. Mum has always worked. You know, I’ve always. He doesn’t know any other but and yet. There is that. Conditioning. And so you know we. I did use many of the tools that I, you know, at least work with leaders on and asked him flip questions. Would he have said the same thing if it had been the other way around and engaged on the on that conversation and at night? You know, he. Came to me and he said before bed he said, you know, I’m really sorry. I really do. Reflect on and I. That’s great that that shows that. He’s 15, you know. But but it also really got me thinking that even in a household like mine, where these are topics of conversation constantly, the kids know how I feel about. Glad he felt safe. Now to be able to see it and then engage with me on it, I do appreciate that. But there’s so much social conditioning around this, right?
Speaker 1
Yeah, even though he doesn’t see it at your house, he sees it on TV.
Speaker
Yeah, and.
Speaker 1
He sees it with his friends. Sees it elsewhere. I thought I could raise my kids in a vacuum. Like we’re getting gender neutral toys only and then you get a birthday party just ruins that and.
Speaker 2
Exactly. Go to school.
Speaker 1
Friend’s house hears. It’s like, oh, dear, here, here we are. So yeah, I totally get it. And I also love that he owned it and just continued the conversation with you, Israel. We need to do just own it.
Speaker 2
Exactly.
Speaker 1
It wasn’t me, you know. Call out moment was more just a call in moment. What do you? Yeah. Do you? Like what do you? The same that was a woman, that a driver, you know, just kind of that thinking and that critical thinking skill that you get when you have those conversations, the back and forth that is good for everybody. Don’t we want those kind of conversations when we’re innovating?
Speaker
Thanks.
Speaker 1
Making decisions like modeling that is so helpful for business.
Speaker 2
Absolutely. But one of the things that really was, you know, I’ve been rethinking a lot about. Is, you know, when I work with leaders, this is what I. You know, really asking them those questions, getting them to reflect and think, hopefully creating a space where they can have these conversations with me and for the most part they do. They do share their deepest concerns. What they’re thinking, what they’re uncomfortable with. But when it was my own son, my instinct was to actually if my husband hadn’t held me back, my instinct was to maybe erupt in that moment because I was just like, oh, my gosh, it cannot be my son. Doing this, that’s.
Speaker 1
Think you must be doing this on purpose, right?
Speaker 2
She’s like. How is this? Like it was almost in, like an insult to me. So I’m really glad my husband was there too. He is your son. Don’t interrupt on him.
Speaker 1
Good. How are you? Great there.
Speaker 2
Oh good ally. And I needed that in that. Otherwise, you know, it could have been a very different outcome and the problem is that if I had done that, that’s what I think about. If I had erupted, if I had reacted to that. In a way that wasn’t constructive. Then what would have happened is the next time he has any of those thoughts or wants to say he will hold back, and then I don’t know what he’s thinking and I cannot be involved and engaged with that.
Speaker 1
Riley. Then we’ve got a backlash on our hands.
Speaker 2
And then we’ve got a backlash. Because then. He’s. Those sentiments build up right. And so I’m very grateful that I didn’t. I had the ally next to me and.
Speaker 1
Interviewing you know, just reflective listening techniques can be so helpful. Call in moments. Loretta J Ross new book about calling people in, not out. Of based on. Ted talk. And it’s just like this is like the situation she brings up and like, oh, I would love to say I’m the bigger person. But you know, there are times when my husband has told me back and. This is not about sexism, racism, diversity like this is. Else is going on here, but usually it is. Also straight up.
Speaker 2
Usually it. I mean, that’s also something we need to put on the table that sometimes do we discount it that it isn’t because we’d like to think that. You know, and we also grew get pushed back, right when you’re in this space, I think we all get that push back around. Come on, you’re making everything is.
Speaker 1
Matter of the.
Speaker 2
This right? But a lot of the times I have to be honest. Actually, is, if we’re honest about it. So you know we we also have to have to be able to stand up for what it is, address it, bring it up, call it in. And and in today’s climate, that’s difficult, you know, with my research over the last two years in the new book coming out, it really looks at those emotions that are at play when it comes to this resistance and backlash. And a lot of it comes down to the. Human emotion of fear. Right. And you know, you think about how many people feel overwhelmed right now. Feel uncomfortable where they feel anxiety, where they’re feeling worried, panicky, insecure.
Speaker 1
If you’re think straight when you feel that way.
Speaker 2
Exactly. And these come down to the very core human emotion of fear. So letting go of fear is a big part of it. That’s that’s not. And there’s fear in all sides. Those of us working in this space right now are experiencing fear. But it’s also those on the other side of the valley who are also their reactions to the EI are coming from that space of fear. Does this mean for my space that I’ve occupied from the opportunities that? Had what does this suddenly mean for me, right? And how do we let go of that fear?
Speaker
Yep.
Speaker 1
I can’t. That’s the first chapter of my new book is fears, and I’m the fears and its status threat was a big one and everything. Exactly, exactly. About yeah, I got to process that stuff to move forward, to be able to have these conversations. Thank you. Thank you so much for all of the work you do for your kindness and thank you. I know you’ve had a very active. Speaking schedule, so to make time for this conversation as a real treat. And thank you.
Speaker
But.
Speaker 1
Shirley. Hello, listeners. Where can I follow you and get a new book?
Speaker 2
Thank you. The new book comes out in May, so pre-orders should be coming out. So if you follow me on LinkedIn, I’m really only active on LinkedIn, but do connect with me there and you’ll get the news on when the new book is coming out and. I look forward to hearing reflections once people have read it.
Speaker 1
I can’t wait to read it.
Speaker 2
Thank you.
Speaker 1
For.
Speaker 2
Thank you. Thank you as well for the work you do and the collaboration.